[00:00:05] SY: Welcome to the CodeNewbie Podcast where we talk to people on their coding journey in hopes of helping you on yours. I’m your host, Saron, and today we’re talking about a laboratory scientist shift to software with Vanessa Vun, Front-End Engineer at SciShield.

 [00:00:19] VV: I was in the head space of, “If it’s a rejection call, I’m just going to keep going until I get that yes.” I left myself notes around my computer saying, “Pressure makes diamonds,” or, “Always have a learning mindset. Stay curious, collaborate. I’m just going to keep going no matter what.” [00:00:41] SY: Vanessa shares her experience learning code on her own, how she entered tech during periods of layoffs, and what helped her push forward after this.

 [MUSIC BREAK]

 [00:00:57] SY: Thank you so much for being here.

 [00:00:58] VV: Thank you. It’s an honor to be here.

 [00:01:01] SY: So let’s start from the beginning. Tell us a little bit about you growing up. What did you like to do? What were you interested in?

 [00:01:07] VV: When I was growing up, I actually got into coding early on in middle school. My middle school was a technology middle school in the Bay Area, so I learned computer hardware, C++, graphics design. I was naturally gravitated towards the arts and technology when I was growing up through middle school. So I really enjoyed playing with computers, video games, back when you order video games through catalogs. So that was how I started my interest in technology, games, and arts.

 [00:01:46] SY: And when was the first time that you built a computer? I heard you do that when you were very young. How old were you?

 [00:01:51] VV: I was I believe 11 years old.

 [00:01:54] SY: Wow! So did you always know that you were going to get into tech?

 [00:01:59] VV: Well, I think I did, but around high school I gave up on it because naturally I had imposter syndrome in high school. I felt like I wasn’t smart enough to get into it, and that led me to do a path as a doctor due to the interests of my family and my bio teacher. She thought that I would be great as a doctor because she said my handwriting was like a doctor’s, but thinking about it… [00:02:33] SY: Interesting. I haven’t heard that one before.

 [00:02:37] VV: Yeah. But thinking about it, doctors have a reputation of bad handwriting, but I had a nice cursive back then. So I’m not sure. But that was like the kickoff of my pursuit in becoming a doctor throughout high school and college.

 [00:02:54] SY: Interesting. What was it about medical school that made you interested that got you excited?

 [00:02:59] VV: I really wanted to help people because I grew up in the Philippines and Malaysia, when I was younger, before moving to the States, when I was about nine years old. I was living in like a very poor area and my family had the heart to make food for people in the neighborhood. So I had that mindset of helping people and that’s why I wanted to have a career in medicine and become a doctor and be that person to help others.

 [00:03:32] SY: So when you got to college, what did you study?

 [00:03:35] VV: I studied molecular environmental biology with a focus in environmental and human health.

 [00:03:45] SY: Interesting. And did that lead to med school?

 [00:03:48] VV: No. So I graduated college with a bio degree, and now that time I didn’t want to go to medical school, I was trying to figure out, “What do I do with this bio degree?” And so that was my first step in trying to find alternative careers. I first interned at Greenpeace, thinking maybe I’ll do environmental work. And eventually, my sister who worked at the hospital at that time introduced me into laboratory science. So I was able to do a tour of the lab in the hospital, and I felt like, “Okay, I could do this work.” [00:04:26] SY: Okay. Cool! And so you decided to do laboratory sciences. So what does that mean exactly? What do you do in a lab? I imagine a lot of pipettes and a lot of Petri dishes. Is that what it ended up being like?

 [00:04:39] VV: Yeah, basically. But I ended up being in the molecular departments, so I chose that department as the first place to start as a laboratory scientist because it had automated machines and manual work. So I was able to do pipetting and also load like a bunch of samples in the machine and have that machine do all that work, and all I need to do was review the results to make sure that it’s accurate. So I enjoyed that because I was always interested in robotics or things that are very techie, so that’s why I was gravitated towards the immunology department because of the automated machines and robots.

 [00:05:26] SY: And how long were you in that role for?

 [00:05:27] VV: I was a lab scientist for 10 years total.

 [00:05:32] SY: Wow! That’s quite some time. Did you enjoy that work?

 [00:05:35] VV: I did, and I felt like I was helping people, but not like doctors and nurses where they’re the front facing portion of healthcare. I was able to contribute behind the scenes.

 [00:05:51] SY: And did you like being behind the scenes?

 [00:05:53] VV: I do. Being an introvert, it makes me happy that I don’t have to deal with too many people or strangers.

 [00:06:00] SY: Yep. That makes sense. So when did coding come about for you? Because you’re not doing laboratory science anymore, you’re a front-end engineer. How did that transition take place?

 [00:06:09] VV: Yeah, there were factors that led to my career change. One of them is health issues. I have endometriosis, so I was going through medical procedures throughout the pandemic, and I felt like tired all the time and moody. I also lost an uncle during the pandemic.

 [00:06:33] SY: Oh, I’m so sorry.

 [00:06:34] VV: So yeah, that was just a reminder that life is short and that I should pursue whatever I want to make myself happy. I want to enjoy the work I was doing.

 [00:06:48] SY: And you weren’t enjoying laboratory science anymore?

 [00:06:51] VV: At some point, I started having the desire to fulfill my interest in arts and creativity. And while I was working as a laboratory scientist, I had the desire to contribute in laboratory software because a lot of the administrative tasks that scientists had to do was all manual. So it was tracking through Excel Sheets or even through papers, updating paperwork, and things just get really manual and I just want things more automated. With my interest in automation and robots, I really wanted to get into that. So that was the step in the direction of where I end up today.

 [00:07:40] SY: So what was the first step once you had that idea, to get back into tech and to start this journey? What was the first thing you did?

 [00:07:48] VV: I first took a career course in finding what brings me joy. So I thought about my childhood and how I coded before, and how I did a lot of arts and painting, graphics design, all that stuff. I wanted to do that now. So after that career course, I thought about, “Okay, coding is probably the best way to get back into that.” And so I started researching on courses that could take in the meantime, like maybe after work or weekends. So I started with Codecademy, and then after that, I took some pre-courses for some bootcamps, but I ended up doing a self-taught route because I didn’t want to be confined to the bootcamp setting and timeline. I wanted to get deep into things at my own pace.

 [00:08:53] SY: And get that flexibility too and how you learn and what tools you use and that whole thing.

 [00:08:57] VV: Uh-hmm.

 [00:08:58] SY: So how did you figure out what you needed to learn? If you’re going about it on your own, you’re doing the self-taught route, how did you figure out what you had to teach yourself?

 [00:09:06] VV: I actually studied several bootcamps’ curriculums to see what kind of technology or concepts they covered during their bootcamp experience. And then I found equivalent courses through Udemy, and that kind of led me to other resources like Scrimba or Zero to Mastery Academy. These are other self-taught routes that I ended up finding that helped me.

 [00:09:41] SY: And how did you feel going into it? You left tech because you felt an imposter syndrome and you were feeling a little bit of self-doubt and low confidence. How did you feel trying it again 10 years later going into it? How did it feel?

 [00:09:54] VV: I felt good. Maybe because I grew up and I’m a little older and wiser and have more confidence in myself. So going back into coding, I have way more confidence and way more belief in myself. So that’s how I was able to do the self-taught route because of that confidence and belief in myself.

 [00:10:20] SY: So how long did you end up spending teaching yourself how to code?

 [00:10:24] VV: About three or four months. I tried to keep that same timeline as a bootcamp. But around the time that I was ready to apply for jobs, that was when tech layoffs happened last year.

 [00:10:43] SY: Oh no.

 [00:10:45] VV: So yeah, I started applying around August last year, September last year, and that prolonged my learning because I wanted to become competitive as an applicant. So even though my three or four months of self-learning ended, I kept learning to try to keep up with the crowd or what was trending as a technology out in tech.

 [00:11:10] SY: Tell me about how you knew you were ready to start applying for jobs? Because when a bootcamp ends, it’s over. So what are you going to do? You’re going to apply for jobs. So it kind of makes sense. But when you’re teaching yourself, how did you know you were ready to start looking?

 [00:11:26] VV: I read online that you will never be ready to apply.

 [00:11:32] SY: Yeah.

 [00:11:32] VV: So you just have to try and get the experience or gain the experience of interviewing and applying. So my curriculum for myself was over. So I said, “Okay, well…” [00:11:45] SY: Okay. Yeah.

 [00:11:46] VV: “I guess I’ll just go ahead and try to apply even with layoffs happening.”

 [00:11:52] SY: Yeah. Yeah. Got you. That makes sense. I think one of the hard parts about learning how to code on your own is you don’t necessarily have someone built in to go to, right? If you do a bootcamp, usually there’s mentors on the staff or there’s TAs. There’s a teacher that you can talk to directly and get your questions answered. When you were stuck while you were learning how to code on your own, what did you do?

 [00:12:15] VV: I reached out to my own friends that are willing to help me debug my app. I also used a website, I believe it was codementor.io, and just hired a senior engineer who could teach me or look into my code. So yeah, it was a little pricey, but I was willing to spend a little bit of that money to get some guidance and mentorship because I skipped out on that bootcamp experience. So I felt like, “Well, spending maybe 30 bucks for this developer isn’t that bad, considering I didn’t do the bootcamp route.” [00:13:04] SY: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So using some of your resources to make that journey a little bit better for you and a little bit easier getting you unstuck, I think that makes a ton of sense. Yeah. So when you started applying for jobs, what was the initial response? What did you hear?

 [00:13:21] VV: The first two callbacks I had, one of them was for a mid-level role, and the hiring manager straight up said within 10 minutes of the conversation saying that, “Well, you don’t have enough experience and we don’t have the capacity to mentor anyone right now because we want to find someone who can hit the ground running.” So I was like, “Okay, well, why did you even interview me?” [00:13:52] SY: Yeah.

 [00:13:55] VV: And then the second interview I had was with a local Bay Area company, and it was actually for a junior role. However, they already hired someone when I was midway through the interview.

 [00:14:09] SY: Oh. Okay.

 [00:14:09] VV: So there goes that one. But then after that, it was like months of dryness. There’s like nothing going on for a while, especially because I was in the middle of holiday season. This was around November, December.

 [00:14:25] SY: Oh, it’s terrible time. Yeah.

 [00:14:27] VV: Yeah.

 [00:14:28] SY: Not a great time for applying.

 [00:14:29] VV: Yeah, it was completely dry those two months, but things picked up again earlier this year, around February, March. So it was a long dry period during the application process. But in March is when I received callbacks for a job, actually as an apprenticeship. One of them was with Airbnb.

 [00:14:55] SY: Oh, cool.

 [00:14:55] VV: So I was able to, yeah, go through that process with Airbnb for their apprenticeship program. But at the same time, I also had an interview at a financial company. The recruiter found my resume back in December, and they got back to me around March. So around March, it was very stressful because I was doing Airbnb and this other interview at the same time. And my friend who’s an engineer, he said that, “This is what you have to do as a person trying to find a new job. You need to get this experience of being able to interview at multiple places at the same time and prepare the technical interview portion of these interviews or these processes.” So that was a very, very helpful but stressful situation for me. But to me, it felt like it was a good sign that things are picking up again.

 [00:15:54] SY: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So when you were interviewing for the job you have currently, how did it feel to be in that position? It had been months prior to that where you were trying to find a good fit and that things were dry, then they kind of picked up a little bit more. What kind of state of mind were you in when you were interviewing for your current role?

 [00:16:12] VV: My state of mind was at that point, after receiving hundreds and hundreds of rejections, my state of mind was to just do my best and the company who will see my potential will be the one to pick me up. And so at that point, I didn’t have any expectations. I just went with the flow and just do the best as I can.

 [00:16:40] SY: How did you maintain your optimism during that time? It can be really tough to hear so many rejections. It can be really tough to just be told no dozens of times, let alone hundreds of times. How are you able to go through that and still believe that there was an opportunity for you on the other end?

 [00:16:59] VV: Yeah, because of the layoffs and the high competition, especially in this market now, I decided to pick up a part-time job in my previous career during this whole time, so I can feel secure that I have money coming in to pay the bills. And so with that security, I’m able to feel like I can do this for another year if I had to do that. So having a part-time job really made me feel secure about learning and applying part-time while the other half I’m working for money. So I think just having that security made me feel more confident in myself and that I can do this as long as possible.

 [00:17:55] SY: Were there ever any moments, especially after you got that part-time job where you said, “You know, maybe I’m over this, maybe I should just go back to doing this full time”? Did you ever have any moments like that?

 [00:18:06] VV: Yeah, especially around the time I was interviewing for my current position now. Around that time, I just kept having doubts like, “This is too hard. Maybe I should go back to what I was doing.” But whenever I go back to that part-time job, it was a constant reminder that I needed to get out or close that chapter. Yeah. So going to my part-time job, like driving over there, over the bridge takes like one hour to an hour and a half commuting to work. I was like, “Ugh, I need to switch,” like, “I can’t do this anymore.” So that was the constant motivation whenever I’m at work or like driving over to go to that work. And also, that was a time that I would listen to podcasts like Code Newbie to remind myself like, “You know, that’s the life I want. I want to be able to change careers.” [00:19:08] SY: And now you get to be that story, that inspiration for other people.

 [00:19:13] VV: Yeah. I hope.

 [MUSIC BREAK]

 [00:19:27] SY: So how much time passed between the moment you said, “I’m going to start learning how to code, I’m going to start this career transition,” to you getting that first paid opportunity?

 [00:19:38] VV: So the moment I decided to change my career was probably November of 2021, and then the moment I quit, my full-time job to focus on learning and changing career was April of last year. And then from April, 2022 to May, 2023 is the entire coding journey or job hunting journey.

 [00:20:13] SY: So a little bit over a year of full-time focused work.

 [00:20:16] VV: Uh-hmm.

 [00:20:16] SY: Were you were also working part-time during some of that period as well?

 [00:20:20] VV: Yes. I was working part-time for some of it.

 [00:20:23] SY: So what was it like when you finally landed your first full-time job? How did that happen?

 [00:20:28] VV: Yeah, it was in the evening. I got a missed call around 7:00 PM, my time, and it was from like an unknown number in the East Coast. I was like, “Oh, wait, this might be good news because it’s in the East Coast.” So I decided to check out the voicemail and it was from the hiring manager, asking me to call him back. So I said, “Oh! Whoa! I have to call them back now!” So I called back and the hiring manager picked up and said that they’re going to give me an offer and that they’ll submit the offer letter by email after the call. And so the whole time I was saying like, “Okay, cool. Yeah, I’ll check out the offer letter. I’ll get back to you with my decision.” But after that call, I hung up and like screamed. I was being excited. I couldn’t contain myself. I was jumping and screaming.

 [00:21:32] SY: Oh, that’s so exciting.

 [00:21:32] VV: And my husband was like, “I knew it! I knew it!” Because he kept saying like, “It’s your time. It was about time.” [00:21:41] SY: Yeah.

 [00:21:41] VV: So yeah, I definitely like kept my cool during the call, but after hanging out I was like going crazy.

 [00:21:50] SY: What state of mind were you in when you got that call? Were you still feeling optimistic? Did you still feel like you could keep doing this for another year if that’s how long it took? What kind of headspace were you in before you got that call?

 [00:22:03] VV: Yeah, I was in the headspace of, “If it’s a rejection call, I’m just going to keep going because I have this secure part-time job. I’m just going to keep going until I get that yes.” So I didn’t have any expectations when I first got that voicemail.

 [00:22:24] SY: I think that’s a really healthy mindset to be in, especially because you set yourself up for the long term, right? You gave yourself enough runway to say, “I can do this for another year.” Now if you can do it emotionally for another year is a whole separate question. And I’m wondering how you tackle that, because even though you’re financially able to make it into another year of searching, I can imagine that it’s just emotionally taxing, you know? It’s just hard. It’s frustrating. How did you deal with the emotional part of this journey?

 [00:22:55] VV: Thinking about it, sure, I had the part-time job to secure me financially, but emotionally, I think I was always going between self-doubt and then just keep going or the other side of it, which is, “I’m just going to keep going no matter what.” And it’s a constant back and forth of giving up or not giving up. Give up or not give up. So yeah, I’m not entirely sure how long I could keep that up, but I was determined enough to keep going. I left myself notes around my computer saying like, “Pressure makes diamonds,” or, “Always have a learning mindset. Stay curious, collaborate, and remember the truth.” And I have this kind of religious quote here, but basically I need to remember my truth and use that truth to empower me to keep going with that truth. So it’s just a lot of self-motivation from external sources and listening to podcasts and even on LinkedIn, having a community of similar devs going through the same thing. And it’s helpful to be able to talk about my experience with other developers like me. And I still watch their journeys on LinkedIn to see if they got their job or if they got a call back from an application. So I think having that community that I built up just through networking really helped me feel like I’m not alone. So I think having the community really kept me going and to focus on what I wanted to get done, which is to get that first job.

 [00:24:57] SY: What’s really interesting about your journey is also the fact that you enter tech during a lot of waves of layoffs. Right? You mentioned that earlier in our conversation as well, that there’s been just waves of layoffs that have happened, mostly at big tech companies over the past couple of years and it scared a lot of people and it’s made people very uncomfortable and it makes job security seem less secure and it creates a lot of doubt in the market and amongst both people who were already developers and people who were looking to enter. I’m wondering how that affected you. How did seeing the layoffs happen at a time when you were trying to enter the market? What effect did that have on you and your journey?

 [00:25:39] VV: It made me realize this is the reality of tech and maybe in any market, I feel like any job is not a hundred percent secure unless you’re in a government or a state program where you have tenureship. But that’s what I accepted going into tech, that maybe one day I’d be laid off and be part of that number of thousands of people who got laid off. I accepted that reality, but I also wanted to have kind of like an insurance that I can bounce back from that and that insurance is building up my network and friends through LinkedIn or through different community groups such as like Women Who Code, the organization I volunteer for.

 [00:26:43] SY: Coming up next, we hear how Vanessa’s background as a laboratory scientist made her a perfect fit for her current role after this.

 [MUSIC BREAK]

 [00:27:02] SY: Tell me a little bit more about that first job. What is it, do you think, from your resume, your application, your interview, what do you think it was that stood out to the employer that made them excited to give you an offer?

 [00:27:15] VV: Yeah. I think what helped me stand out from other experienced developers that applied for that position was that I was a laboratory scientist and this company, SciShield, is creating solutions and a platform for scientists. So it completed my circle of my story that I wanted to contribute towards laboratory software, and then here it is. I feel lucky stumbling into SciShield where they’re providing a platform for scientists. So my background as a scientist helped me stand out from the crowd, and that’s why they wanted to hear about my story and if I do have the technical experience to back my coding skills.

 [00:28:05] SY: That makes a lot of sense. So it seems like you picking a company to apply for that is in the industry that you’ve spent a decade of your professional life in was a really good strategy.

 [00:28:20] VV: Yeah. So before landing my callback for the current position, I was actually focused on applying for companies that were in the healthcare and scientific space. So I think focusing on that really honed in on my past experience as like an added bonus when applying for these specific companies.

 [00:28:54] SY: So that feels like a good tip. You know, if you have experience in a particular industry before you’re trying to break into tech, leveraging that experience and trying to find companies that are within your industry, that are within your field might be the right way to go.

 [00:29:09] VV: Definitely. And actually after I accepted the offer at SciShield, a recruiter from a healthcare agency tried to recruit me as a developer because they were looking for developers with biotech and healthcare experience, and they wanted to contract someone to help out biotech companies in the Bay Area that they were recruiting for. So I think having a niche as a developer would help people with the job hunting.

 [00:29:48] SY: And do you feel like your experience in laboratory science, has that helped your job as a developer?

 [00:29:55] VV: I think so, because there’s a lot of nuances and concepts and terms in science that are brought up in product training. And so I understand like what that platform is trying to solve. So already having that background experience in science and all that terminology that the platform is using helped me transition or understand the platform better or as quickly as possible. And also I can use my background as the user of the platform. So if I am creating a component or a solution on the platform, I can also see it as a scientist view or the user and try to tweak it in a way that would be understandable on the user side instead of just the developer side where it’s just about coding and making things work. So with my background, I can make things work and also make sure I think about the user’s experience.

 [00:31:05] SY: Absolutely. So tell me about the reality of being a front-end engineer. When you imagine that position, you imagine that role, you’ve been working towards it for over a year, now you’re in it, now you’ve been doing it, how has it matched up to your expectations?

 [00:31:21] VV: It matched up my expectations a hundred percent.

 [00:31:25] SY: Oh, that’s wonderful.

 [00:31:26] VV: It also exceeded my expectations, and it’s because of my manager’s support and my team support in me. So they gave me a place to jump off from, which makes me as successful as possible. So my expectation going into the role was that I’m just going to create components for the front-end side, but then I was exposed to the product side and to the support side of things. So I get a whole big picture view, and that means I’m able to learn more than just front-end stuff. I get to work with other teams and see how what they’re doing affects what I’m doing. And so it’s not just about front-end work, it’s all about creating a product or a platform for our users as a team. So that’s the part where I felt like it exceeded my expectations because I didn’t realize that I don’t have to work in silos. I work with all kinds of departments to make this product work for the clients.

 [00:32:37] SY: So going back to your resume, your application, besides the experience in laboratory sciences, which is directly relevant to what you’re doing today, are there any other volunteer opportunities, any open source, anything like that, that you feel like helped your application or helped your profile?

 [00:32:55] VV: I did an internship at a gaming startup company in Texas. So there, I get to learn, get strategies, and working with a partner in sharing a Git branch, and then also learn how they do their development process. So I was also able to talk about this during my job interview, which gave me like cookie points. I also had my volunteer experience at Hack for LA, which is part of the Code for America Network. So I get to learn the technologies from that organization while also contributing to help others through Hack for LA’s civic projects, which is they have all kinds of projects to help the people of Los Angeles. So having these two experience really gave me insight on not just the different technologies, but learning how to work with other people. So through self-taught or even maybe bootcamp, you’re kind of working by yourself a lot, but having my experience at the internships and volunteer work, I realized it’s not just about coding. You’re also coding and collaborating with a lot of people.

 [00:34:23] SY: Yep. That makes a lot of sense. So I know that an important part of your journey has also been having a supportive manager. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

 [00:34:32] VV: Yeah. Having a supportive manager really helps me with my job trajectory, I guess. Actually, I just had a one-on-one with my manager today and he was just giving me feedback on like what I’m doing great. And having that constant feedback really puts fuel to the fire to help me become like a better developer and also a better teammate, and having that feedback also make sure that I’m being stirred in the right direction to ensure that I’m fulfilling their expectations. So that’s what I feel grateful for, is that my manager is always supportive of me, and then making sure that my voice is heard and also receiving that feedback while also I’m able to give feedback to them too. So that’s why I really feel grateful for my manager and also my company as a whole.

 [00:35:35] SY: Absolutely. Now, at the end of every episode, we ask our guests to fill in the blanks of some very important questions. Vanessa, are you ready to fill in the blanks?

 [00:35:50] VV: Yes, definitely.

 [00:35:51] SY: Number one, worst advice I’ve ever received is?

 [00:35:55] VV: Honestly, I don’t remember advice that is bad. Maybe because I take in all advice with a grain of salt and then filter through the ones I think that works for me and don’t think much of the ones that don’t work for me.

 [00:36:11] SY: Good answer. Number two, best advice I’ve ever received is?

 [00:36:14] VV: Best advice was in a form of questions I was first asked early in my career or in my journey. For example, are you coding for fun or are you serious about it? How can you appear to be more like a developer and not appear like you’re developing as a hobby? So I had to think deep down what coding meant for me and what I can do to show that I’m serious about coding or career transitioning.

 [00:36:43] SY: Number three, my first coding project was about?

 [00:36:46] VV: From scratch, it would be a laboratory timer cabin board, the biggest project I did from scratch and learned a lot about is that project and I learned the difficulty with time and ensuring that the component stops ticking and not infinitely using resources.

 [00:37:07] SY: Very cool. Number four, one thing I wish I knew when I first started to code is?

 [00:37:12] VV: I wish I knew that there were extra steps in the coding journey that is not about coding, which is about job hunting and lead coding, and interviewing, networking, all of that, which happens after learning the basics of coding.

 [00:37:30] SY: That’s a really good one. I like that. So what advice do you have for people who are entering the field today, entering in the midst of hearing about all these layoffs, feeling maybe a little bit uncertain about the future of tech or their future in tech, they’ve been at it for months, maybe a year or two? What advice do you have for them?

 [00:37:50] VV: I would say look through what you have now and what can you do to ensure that you reach your goal. For example, back then when I was told that I didn’t have enough experience, I then wanted to gain the experience, and that’s by just looking out for resources where I can gain the experience, which is through internships or volunteer work. So having the mindset that there are resources out there and you just might not know about it yet. So take account of where you are now and what you have and see where you can find that resource to help you gain the experience you need or elevate your resume as a job hunter.

 [00:38:46] SY: I love that. I think that’s great. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Vanessa, for being on the show.

 [00:38:51] VV: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed my time here.

 [00:38:57] SY: You can reach out to us on Twitter at CodeNewbies or send me an email, hello@codenewbie.org. For more info on the podcast, check out www.codenewbie.org/podcast. Thanks for listening. See you next week.

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